The following interview was with Jeff Worbach, pastor of Christ Alone Presbyterian Church, about the female pastors. Due to its length, it was split up into three parts with the first portion dealing with more abstract conversation about the image of God in men and women. The second portion deals with the texts of the issue in question, and the third installment discusses the nature of preaching itself.
TB: Let’s talk about that interesting analogy you and I talked about a few weeks ago. And I really liked it because it, it refashioned the entire conversation in my mind and it was really helpful, so you…do you mind if I just toss it out there or do you want the honors?
JW: Be my guest.
TB: Ok, so you said that preaching is like peeing standing up. Go.
JW: (laughs) Yes, that was the phrase. Before that let me just jump back to this egalitarian, complimentarian division. Briefly, egalitarians see a man and women as sort of undifferentiated carbon units. Yes, they acknowledge the differences, but these differences are minimized, and either one can pretty much do the job of the other except where biology prohibits, like breast feeding, giving birth. Complimentarians see the differences between the sexes as much larger, much more indicative of roles within marriage and between men and women. This would be more like the traditional man as breadwinner, woman as homemaker kind of thing. And this distinction is important because even complimentarians kind of see preaching as an egalitarian enterprise. You know, if you got a woman who feels gifted and knows the word, you know, Beth Moore, Joyce Meyer, then they should not be inhibited by their gender.
TB: Women who feel called to be pastors, or teachers within the church.
JW: Yes, there are many who say that and that is their reason for pursuing it obviously.
TB: Okay, so if, I know I immediately took a rabbit trail but I promise this will be a short one, what if a woman says they feel an unalterable call to preaching?
JW: I would say that no one gets to do everything they feel called to do in the way they want to do it. Feeling called is, what? A feeling, perhaps a conviction. And like everyone must do, we check our feelings and beliefs against the Word of God for legitimacy. If you son says he feels called to be a girl, or that he feels homosexual, would we say that the feeling must be obeyed? No. And the same is true for a man. If he feels called to be a pastor, but his home life is in shambles, or if he is otherwise disqualified somehow, sorry, your feelings are not matching with reality, you don’t get to do what you feel is your calling.
TB: Ok, that will do. So why peeing standing up?
JW: Because preaching and pastoring a church is a masculine activity. It is like peeing standing up. So we normally talk about preaching like it is gender neutral, like opening a pickle jar, maybe men are more fit for the job, but every now and then you get a stout, ham-handed female who can pop open a jar just as good as any man. Same with preaching, right? Gender neutral, got some women preachers who can hold their ground, preach the word, same thing right? No, preaching is masculine, made for the image of God in men, it is not a gender neutral activity, and so it is like peeing standing up.
TB: Yes, I liked that because that is the thing right? That is the piece that connects preaching to the feminism movement – everything is gender neutral, and that is what the pill did, that is what feminism did, leveled the mountains and filled in the valleys – if you will excuse the innuendos – and leveled everything. Everything became gender neutral, as did preaching. But you are saying that it is like peeing standing up, a man was designed, physically designed for it. And women, well, if they try to pee standing up it is messy.
JW: Exactly. And I hasten to add that, of course women are called to be students of the word, even to teach other women to study and love the word of God, but Pauls speaks specifically about not having authority over a man in the context of church community.
TB: Tell me your opinion on why males? Why men? What about preaching necessitates men?
JW: Well, I would qualify that as not only saying it is male, but for the manly. There is a manliness to preaching, and many men are not qualified for it. Having a penis doesn’t make you a preacher, it just means you have the most basic qualification of being a male. Preaching ought not be feminine, as glorious and blessed as femininity is. We have gotten really used to a feminine form of preaching. And notice I didn’t say feminist preaching, but feminine. Feminine is good, it is part of Gods image, but even that good thing has its place and it is not preaching. Part of the problem goes back to our definition of preaching. If it is like preparing a delicious meal to feed a flock, then why could a women not also do that? And the answer is, they could. She could communicate clearly, speak the truth from the Word, sort of massage the message into the hearts of the listeners.
But I don’t think that is what preaching is, I mean, it is that, but it is also equipping for battle. Listen to the words of Paul in all his letters, we are fighting, waging war against flesh, fighting the enemy, destroying strongholds, battling principalities and powers, putting on armor, crushing the head of Satan, girding up the loins for action, Jesus says the kingdom suffers violence and violent men take it by force – I mean, this is battle. This is war. And so preachers need to have some William Wallace in them. Yes, to feed the flock and counsel and encourage and admonish and deal gently, but we have lost the nature of preaching as forceful and urgent message to the church and world. Men are built to carry weight and take punches, which you will get if you are preaching the word boldly. And I will state the obvious here, men are not going to follow a woman into battle. And the kind of woman that would show up to lead men into battle, has lost all the nature of a woman and essentially has become a man, some kind of Amazonian chick.
TB: Talk more about what you mean by preaching masculine or manly preaching.
JW: Well, let me tell you what I don’t mean. I don’t mean to confine masculine preaching only to the way a human male brain differs from a female one. Men tend to be more analytical, less emotional, more assertive or aggressive, perhaps more pugnacious or recalcitrant. I don’t mean that.
TB: Right, masculine preaching isn’t the church equivalent of, you know, a varsity quarterback doing donuts in his Ford F350 with empty beer bottles rattling on the floor.
JW: Yes, what I mean is that both within and outside the church negotiations and interactions are happening which necessitates the authority and gravitas of a man. Remember, the church is a beacon to the world, not only to call out the message of repentance, but to be a prophetic voice to tyrants.
TB: And so, even before we talk about women preachers or pastors, you would say, hey lets first take step back and define preaching in the first place, and that would be a masculine job, not a gender neutral one which a women, however gifted in speaking, ought not fill.
JW: Yes, I think thats where it should start. Because we have convinced ourselves it is the churches job to be winsome and relatable, and not to take ground, because there are no nasty battles to fight anymore, we have settled for effeminate men in the pulpit, and if you have effeminate men in the pulpit, why not change the sex and put a woman there. There are many women who could preach a sermon according to our current definition of preaching, but I’m saying that our current definition of preaching sucks. We mentioned this already but when God placed Adam in the garden and told him to work and tend to it. The Hebrew words are shamar and abad. When God granted the role to of priests to the Levites, he gave them the same command with the same words, to shamar and abad the tabernacle. Remember how the Levites got the job, they did not participate in the worship of the golden calf as the foot of Sinai, they sided with God, and righteously slew the perpetrators. So these were warrior priests who protect the Temple, and also go before the armies with the ark of the covenant. Skip forward to after the Lord raised himself from the dead, he tells us the church is to assault the gates of Hell, to tear down strongholds, and to lead this charge he gives local bodies leaders to feed and protect the flock, like Jesus instructed Peter on the beach over a bit of fish. A nation that sends its women fight to protect it is an abomination, that’s not a knock on women, its a indictment of men, women are simply not made for battle, they are more valuable then men, and so when they are sent to fight in men’s stead it is cowardly.
TB: Even though one of Paul’s qualifications for an elder is that the man be gentle and peaceable, not a brawler, so how does this jive with the righteously violent Levite idea?
JW: Of course, I’m not talking about having some hulking pastor with the Bible in one hand and a club in the other pacing in front of an abortion clinic. Our fight is not against flesh and blood, right? But it is a fight nonetheless and he must fight like a singing, joyful warrior against all the things that raise themselves against the knowledge of God using the Word. And look, the world needs to be reconciled to a Father. This is particularly true in our nation where fatherlessness is endemic. The world needs and the church needs a fatherly voice and disposition and authority and presence.
TB: Ok, so to summarize what you are saying, preaching has been forgotten as a masculine activity and is seen as gender neutral. And so when you have a godly woman who is has the desire and ability, immediately the question comes as to why should she not also preach. But when she is allowed to make that move into that position it is an, it is fundamentally an act of usurpation, of taking a position not endowed to the sex, and this usurping has an element of, maybe murderous, or …
JW: Well, certainly not outwardly or even subconsciously. I mean, you couldn’t go up to a woman who wants to be ordained and accuse her of murder in any sense of the word as we know it. I only mean that the authority that comes through that kind of position is endowed or granted to a man through the legal channels, I guess you could say, where if a woman took it, it would come through the back channels of usurpation. And that is because they do not have the authority. But if a woman did take this position it could also be aided and abetted by men who allow it. And this is what happens the majority of the time, right? A woman could go rogue and just start up a church out of the blue, without any backing of a denomination, but most of the time it is with permission or in conjunction with men who are allowing it to happen. So, please don’t hear me as saying women who seek ordination are acting in the Tom Cruise Rogue Nation kind of way, it is primarily an indictment on men, who were given the responsibility and will be held accountable for it.
TB: You know, when I think about the best stories it seems like what makes a bad guy and good guy is the idea of authority. The good guy has been given authority that he or she needs to live up to, and the bad character tries to take authority that wasn’t given and make it theirs.
JW: Yeah, I think that is true of authority but also any role or job that was not gifted to you. Men trying to chest feed is the same kind of usurping and a super creepy kind.
TB: So maybe talk more about the idea of authority. I know we covered it a bit before but say more on this idea and where it comes from.
JW: So we talked about the idea that authority is gifted, not merited, when it comes to a man’s leadership in the Garden, in the priesthood, and clearly that also applies to the household from which preachers are selected. Let me explain that. When Paul is listing which of the male species is qualified to be an elder, it is irrevocably bound to how that man is an exemplar of Christ in motion within his own household. Paul says if a man cannot manage his own household, how can he care for God’s church? So there is a very clear, crystal clear, connection here between a man’s stewardship of his authority in the house and his ability to transfer those qualities to the oversight of a church. It is the kind of leadership a man exhibits in his family, the dying kind, the protecting kind, the feeding kind. If you are not a head here you don’t get to be a head there. And many men are disqualified because they do not live up to this list even if they had the desire or calling, as it were, and women are disqualified because they are not heads and therefore not considered on the list to be qualified. Again, we ought not conclude from this that they are stupid or weak or cowardly or more sinful, it is simply a creational directive. Thems the rules.
TB: I take from that that if we are going to allow women to preach, then that should also work retroactively and allow them to be responsible over the house over and above their husband. Seems like a how a AAA ball club or feeder team interacts with the professional leagues, if the sport were managing a household. If you make it to the majors it is because you headed the household well, and clearly this implies you are the head of a household which is a job given to the man.
JW: I think that is a very natural question to ask and one is derived from the other. You can’t pull the thread of this sexual and gender differentiation in one area without unraveling the whole sweater. Pull the thread in women’s ordination and what will result is a weakening not only in the church, but the family life, marriage and the mysteries of the trinity. The image is a cohesive whole and not merely the sum of its parts that can be individually tweaked. Same for men, obviously.
But also, as I have had the opportunity to think about preaching, as I have been a preacher and pastor for a couple decades now, one word that comes to the forefront is gravitas – the latin word meaning weighty, solemnity, seriousness of responsibility. You know, when you see a man and he just has that weighty presence and people are primed to listen to him. Some men command authority more than others. That is the gravitas. All men ought to pursue gravitas but that is one of the marks of a pastor too, I think, where the man commands attention. Voddie Baucham has gravitas, man. That guy commands a room. He is also like six-six and three hundred pounds, and black, and when that guy talks people are pulled into his orbit. But you also got a guy like John Piper, who is not big, but the guy preaches like he is a giant. So there is something about a physical presence but also the air of a man, the atmosphere he brings with him.
TB: Right, so, time’s up, why don’t you give us a brief summary of our conversation and then I want to share one thought.
JW: In summary, I think that there are present day pressures to make women pastors that are more from societal pressures or social factors than to any Biblical authority or exegesis. And in the end, for a woman to be an elder we either must alter the office described in the Bible to accommodate a woman, or altar the image of God in woman to accommodate the office. Or we can do what God says, and magnify the image of God in women and praise, protect and die for the best part of being alive, first in our church and then as an example to the world.
TB: You know, I love the way you describe this life giving aspect of the image in women. It makes me think of my little group of happy friends, there are four couples and we have I think ten kids between us, and they are all best friends and so are we, but the thing that all of these relationships is nourished by is the adamantine relational connections that our wives have fostered. It is because of them that we thrive in this goodness. It is because of this spring of beauty and love and relationship and home centered attention that all of our lives flow. That is something that I will die for and protect and provide for, and I speak for all of those other men.
And this conversation could stretch for hours, I mean, there are many parts to this that we just couldn’t get to, textual considerations, what exactly is the role of women in the church as far as positive commands from God, also probably a ton more cultural niggles that have contributed to our current situation. But, maybe another time. Thank you Jeff, thanks for giving me your time and some very interesting thoughts on the subject. I will forward all the nasty emails to you.
JW: (laughs) Looking forward to it.
Thought Butter 